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Cathelina Duvert: Tell them, look. I'm here for you if you ever need to talk. My sister used to write me notes, like, on a card. I'm I I'm sorry. I don't know how to help you, but just know that I'm here for you. Right?

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Stephen Licciardello: Are you hiding in a box?

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Sharlene Licciardello: Had the pressures of life become so daunting that you put walls up?

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Stephen Licciardello: Are you finding that you are constantly tired as you spend your days performing just to function?

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Sharlene Licciardello: In today's episode, we interview Kathleen Duvert, the author of The Box, where she shares how she overcame depression by recognizing the box she had created.

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Stephen Licciardello: Discover how she learned how to tear down the walls bit by bit. Let's dive in.

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Sharlene Licciardello: Welcome to rewrite your story. The podcast where change begins with you.

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Stephen Licciardello: We're your host, Steven and Charlene.

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Sharlene Licciardello: As professional coaches and mentors trained in various modalities, we have helped hundreds of people

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Stephen Licciardello: Bridge the gap between the person they are

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Sharlene Licciardello: and the person they want to be.

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Stephen Licciardello: We bring you conversations with real people who have overcome real setbacks.

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Sharlene Licciardello: You will walk away with practical steps to find more clarity, alignment, and success in any area you want to improve.

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Stephen Licciardello: So join us and discover how you have the power to overcome, to change, and to rewrite your story.

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Sharlene Licciardello: So pick up the pen. Your new chapter starts now.

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Stephen Licciardello: So, Kathalina, you've got a very interesting story, and it's it's led you to write your book, which is the box, I believe. So tell me a little bit about the journey of how you you actually came to the realization that you wanted to write this book to help people struggling with mental health.

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Cathelina Duvert: So about 25 years ago, I was always suffering with depression. However, I did not know what I was going through. If you if you recall, like, about 25, 30 years ago, we weren't really talking about depression like we are now. So in an effort to understand what I was going through, I started writing a story about a woman who is going through emotional turmoil and how she doesn't understand what she's going through. And it was because I was going through depression and I didn't understand depression at the time. And it wasn't until a few years later, I'm gonna say maybe 4 maybe 3 or 4 years later when I was diagnosed with depression that I realized, oh, okay. That's what my main character is going through. And so it started off as an attempt for me to understand what I was going through and an attempt for me to help myself, and then it branched into something that I can do, a story I can share with others to help other people.

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Cathelina Duvert: So that's how it started.

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Stephen Licciardello: Oh, I love that. And so it's a novel.

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Cathelina Duvert: It's a novel. Yes.

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Stephen Licciardello: That is so cool because you you get a lot of people writing about depression and writing about mental illness, and it's so factual and and, you know, like, clinical.

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Cathelina Duvert: Yeah. I

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Stephen Licciardello: don't know. As a counselor, you probably read a lot of those types of

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Sharlene Licciardello: It's so refreshing to have just that that fictional sort of feel to it. So you could actually be taken on that journey and literally enjoy the process rather than just having facts thrown at you.

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Cathelina Duvert: Exactly. And you know what I did? When I when I realized when I when I was diagnosed with depression, I did a lot of research on it or in life to understand what what depression was, what different types of depression was out there, what medications were used, how the medications work. I did all of that research, including my own research with, not even research, but personal experience with therapy and with medication. And I and I threw it all into the novel in a way to in a way that wasn't as preachy. Right? So my main character is seeing a therapist and her therapist gives her the information that I learned through the research. You know what I mean? So that's what I try to do with that.

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Stephen Licciardello: I just love that because, you know, it it would really bypass critical factor when the reader is reading it and really go at an unconscious level. Like having that metaphor approach. Your your book is called The Box. Why The Box? Like, why what is the box in your in your experience?

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Cathelina Duvert: So in the book, the box has several different meanings. It's it's a meta It is a metaphor for depression. And what my main character realizes upon meeting some a painter who painted a painting called the box, and it's just a woman in a fetal position struggling with emotional turmoil. And there's no box around, but the idea of the box is that this woman has created not just walls around herself to avoid people from reaching her, but she created an entire box to make sure that nobody reaches her. And in her depressive state, she feels like she's trapped in a box and she's unable to or rather unwilling to get out of that box to experience the light, to experience other people trying to help her.

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Stephen Licciardello: That is so powerful.

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Cathelina Duvert: Yeah. Thank you.

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Stephen Licciardello: How how would a person speaking to your our audiences now and our listeners, how would a person recognize if they're in a box?

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Cathelina Duvert: If they if they are avoiding people trying to reach out to them, if they are staying indoors and not going out to experience life, going out to parties or gatherings or just to have dinner or lunch with somebody, someone who is all in inward, in in inside of themselves and and not not living life to the fullest because I'm only speaking from experience, obviously, because that's how I was. I'm a teacher and in the summers, I didn't really look forward to the summertime because the summertime meant that was my own time, and now I needed to do something, right, with my own time. During the school months, I know what I'm doing every single day. I'm going to work. I'm playing a part. Right? I'm acting in with students being teacher. But in the summertime, I was alone. I was in my room.

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Cathelina Duvert: People would say, oh, you should go you know, since you have the summers off, you should go to the museum, you should go do this, you should go travel. I would say, oh, yeah. That sounds like a good idea, but inward, I did not wanna do that. I just wanted to stay home and by myself. I did not wanna go out. I didn't wanna see anyone. I didn't wanna talk to anyone and even thinking about leaving the house to just go outside for a walk with anxiety ridden for me. Right? So so that was me in my depressive state.

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Cathelina Duvert: I did not wanna go out of my box, which was my home, my apartment. I did not wanna go out. So somebody who is all about themselves and is not willing to go out and explore and and engage with other people and with nature, I would say that they need to start thinking about what's going on inside of themselves.

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Sharlene Licciardello: Yeah. Yeah. Because it's can be quite scary, isn't it? Because when you've gotten to that point where you're building these walls around you, that something will stay there for a reason, you try to protect yourself from something, right? Exactly. Yes.

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Stephen Licciardello: Yes. Kathleen, I'm just curious. You said, like, you you're going through stuff, and you got diagnosed with depression and realized that was the character in your your book that you were writing, your journaling time. My question is, what made you seek support in order to be diagnosed? Was there something that happened? Was there people saying, hey, Catalina. This is not normal. Like, what was it that actually you thought, yeah, I need to do something?

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Cathelina Duvert: So I have a twin sister. We're very, very close. And all through our teenage years and college years, when I was going through my depressive state, she would be like, what's wrong with you? You know, why are you crying? Nothing's nothing has happened. Why are you so upset? Why are you behaving this way? And finally, in my mid twenties, I I don't even remember if there was when I started writing my novel or if it was after. There was one evening where we were just hanging out and I started crying, and she's like, this is enough. You need help. And she actually took out the the yellow pages because back then that's what we used. It wasn't the internet just yet.

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Cathelina Duvert: She she started looking for therapists for me, And I was like, okay. I guess this is what we're doing. Because I realized that it was time as well. For some reason, it was hard for me to do this on my own. I needed my sister to do it for me. So she's the one who reached out, and she she found a therapist for me. And I'm the one who made the appointment. And and after, you know and and I started seeking therapy, and that's when I was diagnosed with with depression.

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Cathelina Duvert: Before that, I I didn't understand it. So so it was my sister who helped me who helped me take that step.

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Stephen Licciardello: Wow. And and you know what? Good on you for actually following through as well, because that that takes courage.

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Sharlene Licciardello: During this whole process, when you're going through like, you've started writing the book, and you started realizing your character's going through something in as part of this therapy, and notice

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Cathelina Duvert: this is, oh, all of

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Sharlene Licciardello: a sudden, like, you realize your your character is identified as you. Yeah. And you're noticing as to what she's going through and so it sort of builds on that with your therapy. Were you able to identify any, self care strategies that, your character was able to use and that's something that you found helpful for yourself?

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Cathelina Duvert: Well, in an effort to make my novel interesting, she doesn't use any self care strategies.

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Sharlene Licciardello: Because, you

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Cathelina Duvert: know, I have to make her suffer throughout the book, you know. But, but I started utilizing some strategies and I found them completely by accident. So let me explain. So Yes. My sister and and 2 of my cousins were extremely close and we started challenging each other with exercise. You know? Every day, we would exercise and we would put it on a board, you know, that that we exercise that day. We turned it into a game. And then we took it a little bit further.

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Cathelina Duvert: We we started sharing motivating motivational videos with each other on YouTube. Let's listen to this cousin. This was really cool. Oh, this one is really great. And then we started talking about meditating. And so we would exchange different meditations that we found on YouTube that helped us. And then through this process of exercise, therapy, motivational videos, and self affirmations, I realized that I was feeling better for months at a time. So, and it wasn't until a few months later where I realized, oh my gosh, the exercise has been helping me.

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Cathelina Duvert: But it wasn't just the exercise. I later realized that I was doing a number of things at the same time that sort of helped me overcome depression in a way that I did not I no longer needed medication. So I found these strategies completely by accident, and it was through the help of my sister, and it was through the help of my cousins. And that's why I feel like it's so important that we need people around us to help us out of our depressive funk. You know what I mean? So, yeah, those those were the strategies that I utilized, and I found them by accident.

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Stephen Licciardello: Yeah. It's really powerful.

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Cathelina Duvert: I know.

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Stephen Licciardello: And and you can see, like, your whole mind body connection there, like Yes. The meditation for the mind, and and, you know, I I will just have a thought, and, you know, Charlene and I speak about this quite often. What advice would you give someone that knows someone is struggling through something, knows something is happening actually, I've got another question as well. So know something is happening. What advice would you give to that person to go and speak to the other person? Because some people would say, well, that's their life. That's their business. I don't wanna intrude. But then there's the other side of the equation, and and Charlene and I have witnessed this quite recently that people actually don't have an idea of what that person is going through until sometimes it's too late.

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Stephen Licciardello: So I guess my question is what advice would you give someone who's going through some thing for a loved one to speak to them? And the second question is, what signs should people be aware of?

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Cathelina Duvert: So what signs should people be aware of? Somebody who is constantly speaking in the negative. Oh, my life is crap. And, oh, I I can never do anything right. And I I feel so stupid. You know, somebody like that who's self deprecating, they they they their emotional their emotional self esteem is very low. And if they feel like that about themselves, well well, what must they feel like on a regular basis? If they're saying that out loud, they must be feeling that on a regular basis and saying probably much worse to themselves when they're alone. So any any talk, any negative talk, self deprecating talk, someone who feels like there's there is no point to living, someone who feels like there's no point to doing anything to advance their lives, to feel good about themselves, to feel good about life, I would say those are certain signs. Someone who, obviously, as I spoke about before, who is always staying in, not wanting to go outside or enjoy life or enjoy other people or parties, That's probably those are probably some signs.

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Cathelina Duvert: Of course, I'm not speaking as an expert. I'm speaking from my my own experience and some other people who I've known who suffered with depression. A piece of advice that I would give to them is to make sure that the person that they know that's suffering knows that they're there. Right? Tell them, look, I'm here for you if you ever need to talk. My sister used to write me notes, like, on a card. I'm I I'm sorry. I don't know how to help you, but just know that I'm here for you. Right? Just letting them know that you are there, that you're not judging them, I think is is really helpful.

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Cathelina Duvert: And, also, you could gently say, listen. I feel like I don't know how to help you. So I'm just gonna call somebody or I'm gonna try to look into finding somebody that yet you can talk to if you're not comfortable talking to to me. Maybe reaching out in a sense that this is what I'm gonna do for you. How do you feel about that? Right? Not just saying, listen. This this is ridiculous. You know what? I'm gonna find you a therapist. I'm gonna find somebody to talk to.

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Cathelina Duvert: But being gentle with it, I would say. Those are the two pieces of advice that I would give.

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Sharlene Licciardello: Yeah. Absolutely. Because sometimes again, it's so often to chat with saying, oh, you know, you should do this or you should try this or you should try this. And then, like, it's adding all this stuff bombarding them. Right? And then, like I said, just being gentle, checking in with them and saying, have you considered this? Is this something you could look into?

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Cathelina Duvert: Yeah. Yeah. I think that helped. I remember there was one time there there was a a coworker at my job who was always putting herself down and saying saying things that didn't make sense because she had accomplished so much, and and and I yelled at her. And I was just like, what are you talking about? You're always saying these things and or you you should look at the the the accomplishments that you made. And then it wasn't until later. I was like, why did you, you know, yell at her like that? It was because I was seeing in her what I used to be like. And I would I wanted to snap it out of her, but that wasn't the way to do it.

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Cathelina Duvert: And then later, I apologized to her, and she looked at me. She's like, no. I needed to hear that. Maybe some people need to hear that, but at the same time, I feel like that is not the way to go. Being gentle, I think, is because you just don't know what the person is going through. That particular woman needed to hear it that way, but you don't know if I didn't know if that's what she needed at the time, but I think gentle is more of a way to go.

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Stephen Licciardello: Yeah. That's so good. That's so good. You know, you spoke before about working as a as a school teacher and the summer holidays being totally you know you're freaking out because that routine was was taken away. I can imagine that's quite exhausting performing because I would imagine that depression is always there. You know, I know there have been times in my life that I've been down, and, you know, sometimes you're active so that you can do your job. Yeah. And I can imagine that was quite exhausting for you.

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Cathelina Duvert: Yes. It was exhausting. I and you you feel it physically in your body. Every evening going home, I was left depleted. And I didn't quite understand why. But but at the same time, I have to admit that if it wasn't for my acting in the classroom and around my colleagues as well because they didn't know, If it wasn't for my acting, I feel like I would have gone down a darker path, you know. And and I'm forced right now to think about Robin Williams. We will love Robin Williams.

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Cathelina Duvert: He's so funny and charismatic actor and and and comedian, but he took his own life, and he suffered with something that nobody else could help, that he felt that nobody else could help with. I think anybody who is a depressive and has and and and has to be functioning on a day to day is acting. And and and a lot of times, we we understand that depressors are always feeling exhausted. They're always wanting to stay in bed, and I think that's part of it because we're always acting. We're always we we have to function. We have to we have to play that part, and and I think you're right. It was quite exhausting for me, And I always felt like, oh, you know, I I'm just tired. I just need more vitamins.

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Cathelina Duvert: But I think that that you're right, that that's part of the reason why I was always acting. I was always putting on a performance.

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Stephen Licciardello: I think that's so powerful. And, you know, Wirt, you're probably given a lot of insight to a lot of listeners that haven't really figured out what's going on for them and why are they so tired. So thank you for doing that and being so vulnerable. As you were coming out of and and realizing and started exercising, how did you start to tear open the box and overcome that social anxiety?

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Cathelina Duvert: It's funny because a lot of the times, I don't think I've fully opened that box for myself. I still suffer with social anxiety. It's a point where, you know, I've just self published this novel and every day, like, even yesterday, my mind was made up. Okay. Today, you're gonna go to the library, you're gonna go to the bookstores, you're gonna introduce yourself, you're gonna tell them about the book. I can't. To step outside that door with the sole purpose of promoting myself gives me terrible anxiety even till this day. And I mentioned in a recent podcast that for a very long time, I relied on alcohol to help me overcome social anxiety.

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Cathelina Duvert: So I used to always hang out with my colleagues at work, and they thought that I was so much fun. Why? Because every time we went, I was drinking. I was drinking a whole lot to feel comfortable. I never felt comfortable in social situations, but I was here I was. Fun, Kathy. Best believe I'm gonna drink until I get tipsy, and then sometimes I would drink until I got drunk where I blacked out. The next day, I'd wake up. I'd be like, I don't know what happened yesterday.

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Cathelina Duvert: But everybody's like, oh my gosh. Yesterday was so much fun, Kathy. Yes. You know? That's a problem. And so I'm still trying to help myself overcome that social anxiety. And even when I was in therapy, my my my therapist who that I love to write, she was like, why don't you write a story where you overcome this social anxiety? You do something to overcome it and and I did and it made me feel good and and and the next time that I went out, I I I tried to overcome this and its baby steps. Even though that one time, I went to a party and I didn't drink and I felt like an outsider still. The next time when I went out, I was just like, I can't do that again.

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Cathelina Duvert: I I feel too uncomfortable, so I would drink. So I'm still struggling through it. In terms of coming out of that box, sharing my story is helping me come out of my box, but there are still some parts of of of my anxiety that I I keep inside that box that I'm still struggling with. And I'm trying.

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Stephen Licciardello: I love your honesty.

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Sharlene Licciardello: Yeah. Absolutely.

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Stephen Licciardello: Because I I speak a lot around impostor syndrome, you know, and and the effects that impostor syndrome has had on my life. And and I totally relate because there's a there's an element of social anxiety with me as well. And it's got a lot to do with, you know, impostor syndrome. So thank you so much because people need to realize there's not this magic one day that, oh, okay. I'm cured. I'm healed. You know? It is a daily process, and it is a marathon. And sometimes it's a lifelong journey.

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Cathelina Duvert: I love that you said it's a marathon. Yeah.

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Sharlene Licciardello: No. I was just gonna say, like, a lot of what I'm hearing from you as well as this a big, component of self compassion as well. Like, you're you're having all these strategies. You're putting them in place. I'd like to ask you a little bit more about that later. But you're noticing that even though, like, you'll have days when it doesn't always work, and you're okay with that. Yeah. And you know that's just a learning process.

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Cathelina Duvert: I'm not always okay with it.

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Sharlene Licciardello: Yeah.

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Cathelina Duvert: I I still find myself beating myself up mentally, like, what's wrong with me? Like, the worst that could happen is if I go to a library or a book store and say, look, I just published a book. Would you like to carry it? What's the worst that can happen? They can say no. They're not gonna laugh me out of the store. You know? But I I still go I still go through it. And and sometimes I

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Sharlene Licciardello: yeah. Sometimes I am a little hard

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Cathelina Duvert: on myself, but that's where the the meditation comes in. So I I have a lot of meditations from YouTube saved on my phone about you. You are an excellent writer, and you can do this. And, you

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Sharlene Licciardello: know Yes.

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Cathelina Duvert: I I I have to listen to them on a regular basis. It's like beating myself every single day in order to go out and do the the courageous thing.

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Sharlene Licciardello: Yeah. That's the thing.

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Stephen Licciardello: Yeah. You know? You know, you were talking about some cues that you can listen to even in yourself is your own self talk. And then your own self talk can actually be the, you know, something that can give you an idea. Are you going through some sort of depression? What are some strategies you use when you find that your self talk isn't supporting you at at that time?

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Cathelina Duvert: I I know when I'm when I'm telling myself things that are that are keeping me from being my best, I have to sit back and say, okay, Kathy, what's really bothering you right now? What is it? Right? Sometimes it's a source. Maybe maybe I had an argument with my sister that morning and I'm feeling low about it. And sometimes it's just me being me. So the strategies that I use again, I had mentioned it prior to the to the interview. I have this prayer prayer that I say. I say, the lord is with me. The lord is by my side. The lord is with me.

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Cathelina Duvert: The lord

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Sharlene Licciardello: is by my side.

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Cathelina Duvert: It's like my mantra. I just keep saying it. The lord is with me. The lord is by my side. And it started off years ago, many years ago when I used to say, please, lord, be with me. Please be by my side. And then I had to shift that because I know the lord is always with me. So I had to shift it to the Lord is with me.

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Cathelina Duvert: The Lord is by my side. The Lord is with me. The Lord is by my side. And I keep saying it over and over again. And sometimes that gives me the courage to do what I need to do. Or sometimes it just helps me through like, it it helps block out the negative talk so that I could do what I need to do. So that's one strategy that I use.

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Stephen Licciardello: Yeah. And I love that. And and, you know, it just reminds me of Romans 8 where it says casting down all imaginations and every high thing and bringing every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.

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Cathelina Duvert: Oh, I like that.

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Stephen Licciardello: And by and by repeating that mantra, you're actually bringing those thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ by saying he is actually with me.

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Cathelina Duvert: Yeah.

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Stephen Licciardello: I love that. Yeah. Thank you so much.

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Sharlene Licciardello: Saying it as is as it is. As it is. As it is. Yeah. Not like it's a request that you know it is. Yes. Yes. Beautiful.

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Stephen Licciardello: Love that.

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Sharlene Licciardello: Thank you.

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Cathelina Duvert: So good.

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Sharlene Licciardello: I was just saying, please say, Kathalina, how can and individuals build resilience to actually better cope with life challenges? What are some little tips I can give them?

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Cathelina Duvert: That's such a good question. I really feel like okay. So this is what I'm gonna say. We are all, I felt, I feel put here for a reason. We all have something in us that we're meant to share with others. And I think in a way, that's our creativity, whether it is creatively dancing, gardening, writing in my case, podcasting in your case. Right? I feel like we all need to immerse ourselves in the thing that makes us tick, that thing that we feel like we cannot live without. I feel like if we really use that and go inside of ourselves and really think about what is it that drives your passion, I feel like you can use that to uplift yourself, and then you will be able to uplift others.

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Cathelina Duvert: Does that make I don't know if I answered your question. Yeah.

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Stephen Licciardello: I I think it makes perfect sense. You know? Because you you look at, you know, when we're when we're teaching coaches and and when we're doing our, you know, certification courses, we actually tell people that when you're the most fulfilled in life is when you're aligning with your passion and purpose.

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Cathelina Duvert: Yeah. Yes.

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Stephen Licciardello: And it's when you're away from passion and purpose that you feel like the the depression the things like that come in because you're not in line with your true self.

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Sharlene Licciardello: Mhmm.

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Stephen Licciardello: And and it's passion and purpose that directs us and drives us. You know? Like, I know with with me, if I'm not teaching, training, and motivating, then I'm not in line with my passion and purpose. Right. You know? Whereas, Charlene, yours is, you know, when you're listening to people and supporting them in in that coaching Nurturing. Nurturing your your impassion.

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Sharlene Licciardello: Sorry.

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Stephen Licciardello: So totally get what you're saying, and and I think that's so important. And and I think the sad thing is that not many people know what their passion is or their purpose is.

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Cathelina Duvert: Yeah. So, like, now the question, I guess, is how do we find our purpose? How do we find our passion? Like I said before, writing was always with me. It wasn't one day I was like, let me start writing about I started writing even at a very long age. I remember I used to, like, take a a full sheet of paper. I would fold it in half and draw lines around across it and write little books, and I would give it to my dad so that he can read it. He's my father loves reading, and he always fell asleep while he was reading books. And if he fell asleep reading my book, yes. You know? So I so that was always something with me.

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Cathelina Duvert: So if people don't understand or know what their passion is, just think back to when you were a child. What was it that you really love to do? Right? What was it that that that really drove you that, you know, that that thing, like I said, that thing that you feel like you can't live without. I can't live without my writing. I can't. I'm always writing something. Whether it's a short poem, blog, my novel, my stories, find that thing and see if it brings out that that thing in you that that helps you counteract those negative feelings, those negative thoughts.

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Stephen Licciardello: That that is just perfect. You know? Yeah. That is just so well said because, you know, I look at, you know, one of my relatives has a passion for restaurants and cooking and his TikTok is all about cooking. And I'm like, I couldn't think of anything worse. Right. Like, I hate cooking. And it but he loves it, you know?

[00:27:38]

Sharlene Licciardello: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:39]

Stephen Licciardello: And that's his passion and that's his life now. So it's whatever drives you, you know? And and I think if you're growing up around my auntie, around the wood oven and making pizza, and whereas me, I was like, I would eat the pizza, but I'm not cooking the pizza.

[00:27:55]

Cathelina Duvert: I love that.

[00:27:55]

Stephen Licciardello: So I get what you're saying.

[00:27:57]

Sharlene Licciardello: You know? This is just a key on that note. Like, I I've heard many times, like, people have this little thing that whenever been able to identify something that really lights them up from when they was a kid, but they've forgotten about it growing up.

[00:28:10]

Cathelina Duvert: Yeah. Because they'd be

[00:28:11]

Sharlene Licciardello: told, no, that's just stupid. You know, you're wasting your time. And then they forget about it, put it behind them, and they forget what actually lights them up. How do they get back to that? How do they overcome the negative connotation around what actually used to light them up?

[00:28:26]

Cathelina Duvert: I guess they have to to start defying other people. Right? My main character in my novel, The Box, her mother So, my main character, Mia Hill, loved writing stories. And her mother was like, you know what? How can you how can you motivate and elevate our people that way? So put that away, try to find a better use for your talents. And and this is one of the things that caused her depression and her trauma. And she she found a a career that was closely aligned to writing. So she went into the magazine publishing industry, closely aligned to her writing, but when she realized that, oh my gosh, you know, this is what was this is the reason why I was no I was suffering with my depression and the what my mother told me or whatever, and she was finally able to use her talent in a way that still touched people because she was closely aligned with that and she realized what had happened. So maybe I don't know. Now I I'm not I know I'm no expert, but I'm speaking from experience here just like you said, Steven, going back to your childhood.

[00:29:36]

Cathelina Duvert: Right? Defying other people, thinking about what was it that people try to set you off from? Why did they try to do that? Figure figure out what it is what makes you love that thing so much that you're gonna defy those people. What what is it that you cannot live without? Yes.

[00:29:55]

Stephen Licciardello: And and you know what? It just goes back to how our parents' words can really Yeah. You know what

[00:30:01]

Sharlene Licciardello: I mean? Well leaning. You know? Yeah. Absolutely. Because they don't understand. You know? They've been told, you know, this is what you gotta do. So you can't have time for dreams and stuff like that. So they have to quenching someone else's dreams because that's all they know how to do. And you know what? When we look at, you know, I would say, Kathleen, you're

[00:30:19]

Stephen Licciardello: a very similar age to to myself and Charlene, and and we're first generation Australian. You're a first generation American. You're you're a child of immigrants. I'm a we're both child of immigrants and they came and they worked hard. You know, your parents would have worked hard to establish a new life. And so that working hard became the norm and they wanted that to continue not realizing that they actually made it possible for us to live the life we were destined to live.

[00:30:53]

Cathelina Duvert: I so agree. I so agree. And I I my parents, yes, are both from Haiti, and they were hard, hardworking people. But one thing that I really appreciate is that they never shot me down when I talked about my writing. But like I said, my father would read my stories. One time I was at the typewriter before computers, and I was typing up my poems. And my mom was like, what are you doing? I said, I'm gonna put this into a book. And my mom's like, yeah.

[00:31:19]

Cathelina Duvert: Go for it. You know? They they they never shot shot me down or my or my sister or my brother, but we understood their hard work, and we understood that they were doing it for us. Yeah. Right.

[00:31:31]

Sharlene Licciardello: That's beautiful.

[00:31:33]

Stephen Licciardello: I love it.

[00:31:33]

Sharlene Licciardello: That's a good relationship to to see that support. Yeah. It's so

[00:31:38]

Stephen Licciardello: important. You know, going back to earlier, you you spoke about your sister making you, getting the yellow pages out and you took the step to to seek therapy. And obviously, the therapist was encouraging you to write. What would you say to that person that knows they need help, but won't make that first step to seek help or seek a therapist? Okay.

[00:32:05]

Cathelina Duvert: So I'm gonna say that I know it's hard, and I know because when when you're depressed, you just wanna be by yourself. You don't wanna talk to anybody, but it's so important. Community, friendship are so important. So I would say to that person who is not making that first step, maybe to talk to somebody to ask them to be there with them or to make that first step for them. Because even though they're not making this that first step by themselves, the the the important thing is that they get there. You know? To somebody who really does not want that help, it's so hard because you really need to, inside yourself, know that you really need to be ready for that to take that step. Right? So I would say to that person, just hold on, find that one trusted person to share ideas with, to to to help you, to maybe come along with you to that therapy appointment, to make that phone call, or be there with you to make that phone call If you're ready to for that because I I really feel like you're not gonna get anywhere until you're ready. My my main character, Mia, even though she was in therapy for a long time, she was still fighting it.

[00:33:15]

Cathelina Duvert: Right? It wasn't until she felt like she was ready that she was able to open up to her therapist and really start the healing work.

[00:33:24]

Stephen Licciardello: Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Awesome. And Charlene, I wanna hear from you. Yeah. As a counsellor who's worked with many people, would you say in response to what Kathleen has said?

[00:33:36]

Sharlene Licciardello: Yeah. Absolutely. From what I I'm hearing, like, a lot of people tend to actually identify. Like, a lot of times when people don't want to make a change, they've actually identified with that depression or that feeling or emotion. And instead of seeing it just as something that's just they're experiencing in the moment, they've taken on themselves as an identity. Oh, that's me. I'm depressed. I'm this.

[00:34:02]

Sharlene Licciardello: Or I'm angry. That's just who I am now. And if they change, that's who are they anymore? Like, they become someone different, and they don't know what to do with that.

[00:34:11]

Cathelina Duvert: My main character, Mia, goes through that. She's like, this is who I am. This is how I feel most comfortable. Yeah. So so the question is then, how do we break them from from identifying with that depression? That's not something that we wanna hold on to. It's it's limiting their lives. Like, sometimes I feel like I I'm I'm 49 now. I'm gonna be 50 in 2 weeks, but I don't remember my thirties because I spent it in a depressive fog.

[00:34:40]

Cathelina Duvert: So I feel like we need to help them step away from that identity of depression or else their whole lives are gonna pass by, then they're not gonna know what happened. They're not gonna know they're not gonna remember their lives.

[00:34:51]

Stephen Licciardello: Powerful.

[00:34:52]

Sharlene Licciardello: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, like, you know, one one of the tools that was, that has come up many times for me is, is something that I call a road map. And it's like, you know, you got 4 segments. You got, like, moments of sunshine, rain, growth, and, like, rainbows and pain. And, like, you got all these different areas of your life that you can look at, and sometimes they merge together. You know, they don't always stay separate. They kind of come together.

[00:35:19]

Sharlene Licciardello: When you have bad times, you'll have something amazing come along because of that bad time, and you experience a new friendship that maybe develops out of that. And sometimes having those type of tools helps peoples just to get out of that little box and start thinking, okay, there's not just that area of life. There's not just this part. You know, where there's, you know, darkness, there's gonna be some kind of light that just shines through. Helping them to see outside of, you know, just that one thing. There's so many complex natures about life.

[00:35:51]

Cathelina Duvert: I know. Life life can be so beautiful, but we understand that there's pain too. But to to help a depressive understand that somebody who's suffering with depression, it's it's quite challenging. That's why I feel like they really need to want to get out of that depressive state. And didn't force anybody to want Absolutely. Money. You could only be there for them and let them know that you'll always be there.

[00:36:16]

Stephen Licciardello: And I think that's important. I think it's if anyone's going through something, you know, recently, we attended a funeral of someone who, you know, was depressed and, you know, through circumstances, passed away. And I remember the priest during the what do they call it? Homily?

[00:36:35]

Sharlene Licciardello: Homily. Yeah.

[00:36:36]

Stephen Licciardello: Ask people to hold the hand, of the person next to him and said, You can feel that hand next to you. Know that there's never a time in your life when someone's not gonna be there to hold your hand. And I thought that was a very powerful reminder in the time that there's always someone there to help you.

[00:36:56]

Sharlene Licciardello: Yeah. To reach out even if it's just to be with you during that hard time. Mhmm. Like, to not be alone, know that you're not alone in that darkness. Yes. You might wanna stay in darkness. Yes. You might not wanna branch out and do something to change at this stage because you're not ready yet.

[00:37:15]

Sharlene Licciardello: But knowing that there are people there that are willing just to sit with you until you are ready, that can be a big change.

[00:37:23]

Cathelina Duvert: That can be. Absolutely.

[00:37:25]

Stephen Licciardello: Cathalina, you said something before, which is very dear to Charlene in my heart, and we share this almost every podcast. And you alluded to it. Healing happens in community. And we talk about that a lot. And you just mentioned you need a community. In your experience, tell us how important community has been for you.

[00:37:48]

Cathelina Duvert: My experience as I as I mentioned before, my sister really was there for me when she didn't understand what I was going through. She never gave up on me. And then as I mentioned before, 2 of my cousins, Marie Jewett and Marie Louise, they they were always calling. And and one of and my cousins sometimes suffer with depression too. So whenever we, excuse me, know that we're going through something, we make it a conference call. So and so needs help. Come on. Let's do this.

[00:38:16]

Cathelina Duvert: Are you ready? Are are you available tonight at 5? Okay. Let's do this. And and and my experience has been that my family is my community, that they will drop what they need to drop in order to be there for each other. And and it doesn't have to be family. It could be your found family, friends, acquaintances. I don't know anybody who you trust is there in in and there was a book that I read, it's a book called Queenie, Candace. And I think they recently made a series on it on Hulu. And the the main character, she has her work friends, her best friend, her her cousin, and they don't know each other, but they all come together on a group chat so they can help Queenie out.

[00:39:00]

Cathelina Duvert: You know what I mean? So it does it could be a number of people from different areas of your life, but that's so important. So in my experience, I could not have survived if it wasn't for my cousins and my sister, that community, because they never gave up on me. Every time I was low, they were like, okay. Let's get on the phone. We need, to you know, we don't all live next to each other. We live in different states, but we always made it a point to be there for each other.

[00:39:26]

Stephen Licciardello: Awesome. Thank you so much.

[00:39:28]

Sharlene Licciardello: So precious.

[00:39:29]

Stephen Licciardello: Kathleen, if someone wants to reach out to you, we we will definitely include your socials in our podcast notes. And and if they wanna grab your book, they can where would they go?

[00:39:40]

Cathelina Duvert: So right now, they can go on Amazon. It's available there. The Box by Kathleen Dubeir. They can also reach me on my Instagram where I have a link to all my my socials, and my Instagram is captorlino dubert as well. And yeah. And and I have a link there that they can buy buy a copy straight from me so they can get an autograph if they want to, or they can go on Amazon or Barnes and Noble. And also message me on Instagram. I'm I'm always happy to interact.

[00:40:09]

Cathelina Duvert: Awesome.

[00:40:09]

Stephen Licciardello: Thank you so much. Thank you. And finally, what is next in your chapter?

[00:40:14]

Cathelina Duvert: Well, the next few weeks since I have the summer off, I'm gonna step on that courage that I have. I'm gonna try to promote my novel by going to the different bookstores in my area and and the library. And, also, I am starting to work on a new novel about a pair of twin sisters and their their story with their family. And and I'm I'm looking forward to that one.

[00:40:37]

Stephen Licciardello: Awesome. Yes. Thank you so much, Kathleen, for joining us today. Thank you.

[00:40:41]

Cathelina Duvert: Thank you so much. I appreciate that.

[00:40:44]

Sharlene Licciardello: Thank you for joining us on the Rewrite Your Story podcast.

[00:40:47]

Stephen Licciardello: We hope you found this episode enlightening.

[00:40:49]

Sharlene Licciardello: For more information on the topics discussed, please visit our website at stevenandcharlene.com.

[00:40:54]

Stephen Licciardello: Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast on your favorite platform. Share with your friends and follow us on social media at steven and Charlene.

[00:41:00]

Sharlene Licciardello: Until next time, stay informed and inspired.

[00:41:03]

Stephen Licciardello: This is Steven and Charlene signing off from the rewrite your story podcast. Thank you, and stay blessed.